It would have been very similar to todays. Right now, I think that the Browning BLR lever-action rifle is the only production gun left on the market in .358 Win. As illustrated in the chart, .30 M1 Carbine rounds - on average - achieve a velocity of about 1990 feet per second (fps) while .30-30 Winchester rounds travel at a velocity of 2370 fps. The first cartridges were made by turning down rims on .32SL cases and loading with .308 caliber bullets which had a similar profile to those of the U.S. military .45 ACP bullets. Classified Ad (1000+), Search Full Text of Listings The .351 WSL actually used .351-inch bullets. This 170-grain .30-30, for instance, drops 7.7 inches at 200 yards and 26.6 inches at 300 yards. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. In fact, as Speckin explains, the whole series of Winchester Self-Loaders were designed as smokeless semiautomatic analogs for the saddle carbine role. "the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!". PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, DOUBLE TRIGGERS, EXTRACTOR. Due to its blowback action, the rifle kicks like a mule. 1 - Existing barrel making equipment could be made use of. Modern Historical Personal Defense Weapon Calibers 006: The .30 M1 Carbine All of this might sound like splitting hairs, and it is. For hunting, it is considered a small-to-medium-game cartridge. When chambered for cartridges such as the .243 Win., 6 mm Rem., .308 Win. NICE BRIGHT BORE. With the best loads, my Remington Model 700 is one-hole accurate. Auction (19) They would probably still be around today. But do you know the real-world differences between a standard cartridge and a Weatherby Sign in to access your profile, save content and more. It would cost into the 800dollar range just to rebuild one. .351 Winchester Self-Loading - Wikipedia However, as a bottleneck cartridge, the .30-30 has a slight advantage at longer ranges. Just bought the 22 sl. It shoots well and is light and easy to carry while hunting. Both of them had Long Tom 94's in 30-30 Winchesters. Kahr makes the M1 Carbine but they are priced as high a original which i would hold out for if i was in the market for one . At 300 yds., the .358 Norma impacts only 0.96" lower than the .300 Win. You might already know this. We are also beginning to deliver those bullets as components. Most used hard and put away wet. Moderate, safe, bland and predictable. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. In 1944, Smith & Wesson developed a hand-ejector revolver to fire .30 Carbine. These cartridges stack up so closely from a ballistics standpoint that neither can claim to hit harder than the other. It was designed to improve the range and stopping power of the M1 carbine. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. Finally, Winchester had developed an autoloader powerful enough to truly be used on North American big game. The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. I have one, and I like it a lot. Many have complained about the cartridges themselves saying that they were way under powered and useless and only good for squirrels to coyotes, they must be talking about the 22LR. I would like some information if possible on approximate value if in good usable condition. was also the only cartridge of that original Remington family that was based on a different parent case. These seemingly small differences added up to a significant . Many companies now offer bolt, semi-auto, and single-shot rifles chambered in the Legend, but the .30-30 can be found in the same variety. In 1965 Remington took it to the next level with the introduction of the Model 600 Magnum Carbine. LENGTH OF MAGAZINE 5.99? The .30 Carbine cartridge was developed by Winchester and is basically a rimless .30 caliber (7.62mm) version of the much older .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge of 1906 introduced for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. Nominally they weighed 180 grains, were usually jacketed softpoints and were propelled from the 20-inch barrel of the Model 1907 at about 1,800 fps. If you match the bullet to the game, this is one of the all-time great hunting cartridges. The .351 SL proved popular with police and security forces as the only chambering available in the model 1907, and was used by France in both world wars. 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Still, the mild working characteristics of the .30 SL allowed the design of a very lightweight and simple gun, in a similar fashion to how the blowback-friendly .32 and .380 ACP rounds allowed the Kel-Tec P-32 and P3AT to be much smaller and lighter than their blowback counterparts. The Legend has more trouble fighting wind and gravity. Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. Please try a new zip code and search again. It should come as no small comfort for any patriotic American to know that the countrys firearm industry is vibrant and productive, still faithfully serving the needs of armed citizens, law-enforcement officers and military personneljust as it has for more than two centuries. From a four-inch (102mm) barrel, it launched the standard GI ball projectile at 1,277ft/s (389m/s), producing an average group of 4.18 inches (106mm) at 25 yards (23m); the military decided not to adopt the revolver. Other articles said reloaders would resize 41 Magnum bullets (.410), down to .406 to use in the 401 WSL. .351 Winchester Self-Loading (.351 WSL, .351 SL) - CHUCKHAWKS.COM Mag. Show Only with Pictures Both clock in around 9 foot-pounds of energy, about half as much as a .308 Winchester. Gun #: 943226118 . Each round was a straight-walled, semi-rimmed cartridge firing a round-nosed bullet at modest pressure, just like the .30 Carbine. My pick by far is the 30 carbine for all the previous listed reasons. Would certainly make things easier, from a tooling standpoint. Jim in Idaho #7914589 07/19/13. I did read a article that said in the 1920s, the military tried experimented using a Remington model 1908 in 25 Remington and soldiers liked shooting it as compared to bolt action 30-06. Winchester also produced a load firing a 250 grain bullet at 1,870 feet per second (1,942 ft-lbs of energy). The Model 1910 rifles were also prone to cracking of the forearm. and .32 Rem. Midway USA, for example, which is among the best at keeping ammo in stock, reports 35 varieties of .30-30 while only 15 offerings of .350 Legend. 30 Carbine vs 5.56 - Military Cartridge Comparison by Ammo.com The .350 wins that power matchup, but this 170-grain .30-30 option offers 1,827 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while this heavier, 180-grain .350 Legend only produces 1,762 ft.-lbs. The origins of the .35 Whelen are controversial even today. Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. Plainfield Machine Corp. made a .30 caliber pistol from 1964 to 1983 named the "Enforcer". The most popular cartridges for hunting and even target shooting begin and end with the thirties. Versatility The 30 Carbine was necked down to accept a 0.308" diameter, 110-grain full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet. Most have had an active life in the woods earning their keep, not being just stored away in the closet. Does anyone know if any gunsmith ever converted a 30 Carbine to 32 WSL? You can never lead if you always follow; the other cartridges were designed to chase Winchesters success, while the .35 Rem. 94 1946 excellent condition. Make sure you subscribe toThe Big Game Hunting Podcastand follow The Big Game Hunting Blog onFacebook,Instagram,Twitter, andYouTube. It is built on an aluminum- NO NYC, CT buyers please send us FFL or State Permit. Any series covering this topic would be incomplete without a look at the round, however! Dubbed by Winchester as the "fastest straight-walled hunting cartridge in the world," the 350 Legend certainly seems to be designed to fill a particular role in those states which limit big-game hunters to straight-walled rifle cartridges. It is capable of driving a. Caliber Battle: .30-30 Win. vs. .350 Legend | MeatEater Hunting Old School Gun Test: Winchester Model 1907 .351 SL [6] But for the handloader who has taken the time to replace the recoil spring and buffer in the Winchester Model 1907, the .351 SL can be loaded to its original velocities. About 1916 vintage. As illustrated in the chart, .30 M1 Carbine rounds - on average - achieve a velocity of about 1990 feet per second (fps) while .30-30 Winchester rounds travel at a velocity of 2370 fps. . Shootability Every time I use it I ask myself, Whats not to like? Beats me, but nobody liked it enough to keep it in production. pushes a 200-grain bullet to just more than 2000 f.p.s. Know those parts well. Norma offers factory ammunition, E.R. Note: some of the links below are affiliate links. could have been necked down to .30 and would have made a better round for the M1. But the military has hundreds of millions of 30-06 ammo from WW1, and didnt want a new caliber. Heavy, slow, not very accuate, and now days ammo is next to impossible to find. This is a bolt action rifle with a 5round internal magazine and sports a 22 blued steel barrel with visible rif WINCHESTER 1873 MUSKET 44-40 30. The .30-30 Winchester and .35 Remington won't break any speed recordsthere's no doubt about that. What's Going On With .350 Legend? - The Truth About Guns Another comparison is a .357 Magnum cartridge fired from an 18" rifle barrel, which has a muzzle velocity range from about 1,7182,092ft/s (524638m/s) with energies at 7201,215ftlbf (9761,647J) for a 110gr (7.1g) bullet at the low end and a 125gr (8.1g) bullet on the high end.[11]. Everybody agrees that the .358 Win. Its a good time to own a rifle chambered in the .350. And I thought .348 Win was tough to find. Unfortunately, finding .401 or .351 Winchester ammo is also pretty difficult as well, though its still possible to find the odd box of factory ammunition and the necessary reloading supplies from places like Buffalo Arms. .351 s.l. It seems to me that this would be a good time to bring back these cartridges in a modern semi auto or compact bolt action rifle. After reading about the Winchester self loaders, I decided to look online to get more information and see what I could find out, It seems like most writers complain about the Winchester self loaders action, but this was a new product. This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. SMOOTH PATINA METAL. Mag. Winchester .350 Legend - CHUCKHAWKS.COM Perhaps thats why it has survived. Probably well over half of the production for the last ten years went to police organizations in the United States. Do not take the 1907 apart. A standard .30 Carbine ball bullet weighs 110 grains (7.1g); a complete loaded round weighs 195 grains (12.6g) and has a muzzle velocity of 1,990ft/s (610m/s), giving it 967ftlbf (1,311 joules) of energy when fired from the M1 carbine's 18-inch barrel. With these requirements in hand, Winchester's Edwin Pugsley chose to design the cartridge with a .30 caliber, 100120 grain bullet at a velocity of 2,000 feet per second (610m/s). The .30 SL was an entirely conservative design, which hastened development considerably. The carbine and cartridge were not intended to serve as a primary infantry weapon, nor was it comparable to more powerful intermediate cartridges later developed for assault rifles. [6], A number of handguns have been chambered for .30 Carbine ammunition. There are photos of hunters taking a polar bear with a 357 Mag revolver! is a wonderful cartridge, but nobody buys them. Perhaps Military Rifle would have been a better term. How Effective is the M-1 Carbine, Really? - The Mag Life And with Winchester, Ruger, Mossberg and other companies making bolt action rifle in 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster, maybe they could make a run of rifles in 351 WSL and 401 WSL too., with 5 and 10 round magazines. Among Federals offerings, the highest BC for a .350 Legend is .259 while the highest BC for a .30-30 is .313. Barnes has a Vor-TX load with a 180-grain TSX bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2900 f.p.s. and the 6.5 mm Rem. Sold to Iver Johnson in 1983, the Enforcer continued in production until 1986. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguablythe first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. Mag. Townsend Whelen wrote back 100 years ago that the 32 WSL and 35 WSL were good deer cartridges for their ranges. Joined: Dec 2008. Hard to find here in Canada. By comparison, the .30-06 M2 cartridge for M1 Garand rifle fired a ball bullet weighing 152 grains (9.8 g) at a muzzle velocity of 2,805ft/s (855m/s) and 2,655ftlbf (3,600 joules) of muzzle energy. I read somewhere that Olympic Arms made a bunch of 30 carbine uppers for Isreal back in the 90s. Rifle Carbines are available in 40 S&W, and some use it to hunt deer and wild hogs, but even the 32 WSL and 35 WSL beat it in ballistics. Upon firing, the breechblock is delayed in its opening by its weight and spring pressure until the rising chamber pressure overcomes the inertia of the bolt. Winchester took the lessons learned from the Model 1905 in stride and incorporated some changes into the new Winchester Model 1907 rifle and the accompanying .351 Winchester Self-Loading (.351 WSL) cartridge they released a few years later. ", Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II. Not willing to pay the current prices - just yet. As of 2017, Hawk bullets still makes .351 jacketed expanding bullets with jackets of appropriate thickness.[7]. Winchester only sold about 29,000 Model 1905 rifles from 1905 to 1923. Posts: 5,141 . Remington continues to offer factory ammo, and its 200-grain factory load has a muzzle velocity of 2675 f.p.s., while the 250-grain loads muzzle velocity is 2400 f.p.s. Oddly, its bullet diameter is truly .351-inch instead of the .358-inch normally associated with rounds such as .35 Whelen, .35 Winchester or .35 Remington. hit the market in 1895 paired with Winchester's now . They also balance rather far forward due to the very heavy breechblock extension that looks like an operating rod under the barrel. As a rule of thumb, when it comes to hunting, muzzle energy is what many hunters look at when deciding on what caliber of firearm / ammunition to select. Another $300. ARMSCORs RIA 5.0 ST semi-automatic 9 mm Luger pistol represents the companys first handgun to be designed and manufactured here in the United States. In 1987 Remington made an honest cartridge out of the .35 Whelen. Check out GunBroker. This is a bolt action rifle with a 5round internal magazine and sports a 22 blued steel barrel with visible rif WINCHESTER 06 22 S,L,LR. was initially chambered in Remingtons Model 8 autoloader, soon followed by the Model 14 pump-action. But they are so few in number that no general conclusion can be drawn from them. Sure a .351 would have been better, but weight savings was a HUGE priority for the design of the M1 Carbine. Made from premium-grade, vegetable-tanned leather, the Burdette Custom Holsters Detective SA-35 holster is a custom outside-the-waistband (OWB) model for the Springfield Armory SA-35 semi-automatic pistol. The .35 Rem. [6] (The .30 Carbine's relatively straight case and round nose bullet have misled some to believe it was designed for use in pistols.) The .351 Winchester Self-Loading (also called .351 SL or .351 WSL) is an American rifle cartridge designed in 1906. For more detailed ballistics information please refer to the exact round in question or contact the manufacturer for the pertinent information. 80% BLUE. Mag. Cartridges are (usually) widely available and dont cost more than the .350 Legend. the barrel, receiver. . I have used the .35 Whelen on critters from bobcats to moose. They have almost all abandoned the cartridge. Lever Action Rifles: Winchester .30-30 vs Marlin .30-30 SMOOTH GRAY METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A DECENT BORE. round barrel worn finish and cracked butt plate please view pictures for condition. The Remington Model 673 Guide Rifle was chambered in .350 Rem. I'm kind of surprised the .351 wasn't made originally to use .357 bullets, since that bore size had already been established by that point. The performance of cartridges paled in comparison to the .32 Remington (170gr bullet at 2,180fps for 1,794 ft-lbs of energy) and .35 Remington (200gr bullet at 2,080fps for 1,922ft-lbs of energy) cartridges Remington introduced with their new autoloading rifle, the Remington Model 8. First year gun, manufactured in 1939, Pre-WWII. The following ammunition cartridge ballistics information and chart can be used to approximately compare .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester ammo rounds. Its not a long-range powerhouse by any means, but it can be loaded with more aerodynamic .30-caliber bullets that offer higher ballistic coefficients (BC). Winchester sold both soft point and FMJ ammunition for the .351 SL cartridge over the years. Other handguns chambered for this cartridge include the Thompson-Center Contender. The .351 is a great urban defense cartridge, but ammo supplies are extremely limited, and so is magazine capacity. plowed fresh ground. Finally, they are on the heavy side at 8.5 pounds. The competition in this category is just as close as ballistics, but right now, better availability gives the edge to the .350 Legend. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. Our website lists special deals on 9mm Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 45-70 Ammo, 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, 300 Blackout Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 5.56 Ammo, Underwood Ammo, Buffalo Bore Ammo and more special deals on bulk ammo. Don't own one, shot one quite a lot back in the day when a kinsman had one. *We Never share your email without your permission. Versatility refers to the range of animals that could be realistically harvested with a cartridge. The 32 Winchester Self-Loading Cartridge is the parent case for the 30 Carbine. and .32 Rem. I have fired them all except the .22waiting for some ammo. It arrived with three other cartridges designed to compete with Winchester's popular lever-action lineup. The Big Game Hunting Blog is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.ca, Amazon.com.au, and other Amazon stores worldwide. As a result, it has approximately 41% higher muzzle velocity with 27% more impact energy than the parent .32 WSL cartridge. Duke's newest prize is a fine-condition Winchester Model 1907 .351 WSL. offered the performance level of the .358 Win. Generally speaking, the higher the muzzle energy, the higher the stopping power. In 1966 there was a gold miner that was hunting with Dad and I. From the Green Goblin (a bolt-action rifle I built on a Remington action), both will produce groups that are sub-minute-of-angle. One can almost hear the echoes of Norma Mag. It is very accurate, easy to carry and fast on the target. The .35 Rem. winchester 94 carbine vs. 94 rifle | Graybeard Outdoors I own several rifles in this cartridge and all my .35 Whelen rifles are accurate. Winchester sold both soft point and FMJ ammunition for the .351 SL cartridge over the years. All that being said, if one were interested in hunting with a very unique rifle that you would be very unlikely to encounter in the woods in the hands of another hunter, the Winchester Model 1907 and Model 1910 autoloaders in .351 Winchester or .401 Winchester would be a great choice. I have a .356 Win. MADE IN 1933. Copyright 2000-2023 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 26" Barrel. We determine a cartridges shootability by considering its cost, availability, and recoil energy. Read on to find out. At 400 yds., the .358 Norma impacts 3.1 inches lower than the .300 Win. And the Winner Is Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. Even though Winchester developed a round suitable for straight blowback actions, the rifle they eventually submitted designed by William Roemer and Fred Humeston, and based on the work done by convict David Marshall Williams was a gas-operated, locked breech design. Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351 All Types (1000+) predecessor, the Model 1907 was an immediate hit . Commonly known asthe Model 07, the Model 1907 rifle was also popular for law enforcement use. while finding .30 carbine ammo can be a challenge at times, finding adequate quantities of .351 SL would seem an impossible task. For that reason, Winchester decided to build what would become the biggest brother to the preceding lines of self-loaders and the only one that truly was capable of taking big game or of competing on equal terms with Remingtons recently introduced Model 08. to achieve its potential. Why the .35 Rem. However, the .401 Winchester Self-Loading, which was itself proceeded by the .351 Winchester Self-Loading, and the Winchester Model 1907 and 1910 rifles that fired those cartridges, all filled those roles many decades before anyone ever heard of the 10mm Auto,the AR-15, or the Ruger Mini-14. It arrived with three other cartridges designed to compete with Winchesters popular lever-action lineup. The long accepted story was that James V. Howe developed the cartridge in 1922 and named it in honor of his friend, gunwriter Col. Townsend Whelen. like a .223 and just about anything else. Mag.-all with a bigger, heavier bullet that will punch a bigger hole and penetrate deeper. As of this writing, five of Midways .350 Legend options are in stock while the company reports having zero .30-30 cartridges available. However, Winchester experienced great difficulty in the development of their autoloading rifle and the unique calibers designed for it. all were more powerful-and may have been excellent hunting cartridges-but they are gone; rejected by the shooting public and banished to the junk heap of obsolescence. Very well cared for rifle, there is a barely noticable very small chip in the stock .Click for more info. 95% BARRELS, 85% RECEIVER AND N WINCHESTER 1400 20GA 28 MOD. The Legend could certainly bring down an elk, but possible is not the same as ideal. If youre looking for a do-it-all cartridge, the .30-30 will likely serve you better. The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. Its said that the French used it in World War I, but it probably didnt see much action. While the American mainstream wont accept the .35, they are not unloved. The 32 Winchester Self-Loading Cartridge is the parent case for the 30 Carbine. Been looking for a deal on a nice M1 Carbine these last few months in preparing for the eventual Zombie apocalypse. .243 Winchester vs .30 M1 Carbine Ammo Comparison - Ballistics Info This makes sense: the Legend was developed specifically for use in Midwestern whitetail states that require straight-wall cases. During WW2, when army brass asked Winchester to make up a light, handy rifle to replace 1911 pistols, Winchester wanted to use either the 351 WSL or 32 WSL, but army brass wanted a 30 caliber. .30 Carbine - Wikipedia factory load is a 250-grain Oryx bullet listed with a muzzle velocity of 2723 f.p.s. from a 20" barrel. Itsnodawayitustabe Registered Joined Apr 12, 2016 The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps and the muzzle energy 1370 ft. lbs. I read Thompson made a experimental rifle in 351 WSL. The .358 has 24 percent more energy at the muzzle than the .300 Win. However, the calibers available in the Model 1905, the .32 Self Loading (.32 SL) and the .35 Self Loading (.35 SL), were realistically pretty underpowered for satisfactory use on big game. Another article, said at first Winchester wanted to use the 32 WSL for WW2, but military brass wanted 30 caliber, so Winchester designed the 30 Carbine, still popular today. . bumping this, I obtained a magazine for the first one shown up top - for a mere $64. Again, the above is for comparative information purposes only, and you should consult the exact ballistics for the particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester cartridge you're looking at purchasing. Gun guys recognize the potential in the .358. Neither cartridge produces stiff recoil. If you get a GI M1 carbine (only ones worth considering) then youll have a REAL military weapon. The .30 Carbine cartridge was developed by Winchester and is basically a rimless .30 caliber ( 7.62 mm) version of the much older .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge of 1906 introduced for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. Mag. revolvers, so why wouldnt a 35 WSL or 351 WSL not be good for hunting? At first, Winchester was tasked with developing the cartridge but did not submit a carbine design. Due in large part to the limited utility of those cartridge,the Model 1905 was not a major commercial success. I have all the calibers but short the 401 s and the 22 autos ,can you reload or sell a dox of each. [1], The 835mm cartridge of the Ribeyrolles M1918 was based on the .351 SL. the 32 was the hardest one to come up with, There are a lot of 351 out there and some very nice ones, Thanks for this article and the information in it. As such, the following is for comparative information purposes only and should not be used to make precise predictions of the trajectory, performance, or true ballistics of any particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester rounds for hunting, target shooting, plinking, or any other usage. into the deer woods, and I pine for what could have been. The .35 Win., .35 Newton and .350 Griffin & Howe Mag. You cant compare it to todays AR 15s. They truly were ahead of their time, as they were short magnums back when being a short magnum wasnt cool. Copyright 2000-2023 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. I have a 35 wsl and am going to pick up a 351 wsl next week. It's original load is already moving at the speed and with the energy of a 30 carbine but with a 70gr heavier bullet Click to expand. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbinethen save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. The Model 1907 enjoyed a long production run of over 51 years and Winchester finally stopped manufacturing it in 1958. Other firms and individual designers submitted several carbine designs, but most prototypes were either unreliable or grossly off the target weight of five pounds.